Unhinged: A Return to Washington

The ghost of Jeffrey Epstein Another executive shutdown The U S military shooting down a boat The Centers for Infection Control and Prevention is in turmoil just ahead of flu season And where in the world will the National Guard go next This is the world Congress returned to this week If your head is spinning you re not the only one This week on The Intercept Briefing we break it all down with host Akela Lacy and politics reporters Jessica Washington and Matt Sledge The biggest thing hanging over everybody is this looming shutdown says Sledge as Congress necessities to negotiate a budget extension before a prospective October shutdown And as Sledge notes there are a handful of expected fights this session that could hamstring Congress There are a million other things happening on Capitol Hill There s a big defense bill working its way through the House and Senate And then there s this whole Epstein situation he says which threatens to derail everything else On Wednesday morning Reps Thomas Massie R-Ky and Ro Khanna D-Calif held a press conference with Epstein s casualties where they stated a bill to force a vote to release the full Department of Justice examination into the late Jeffrey Epstein Democrats are saying well this is something we should do regardless it is very clearly also a political issue in the sense that Trump has a real weakness with his base says Washington Democrats perhaps were slow to understand how much of a political liability this was for Trump But they re waking up and this does very clearly seem to be an issue that is if not partisan obviously we re seeing Republicans join in as well deeply political in nature Listen to the full conversation of The Intercept Briefing on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen Transcript Akela Lacy Welcome to The Intercept Briefing I am Akela Lacy A large number of of us returned this week to reality but the end of summer feels a little different these days Things are eerily more unhinged Coming off a holiday weekend of speculation that the president died Donald Trump held a press conference where he claimed without evidence that Colorado is engaged in mass voter fraud Donald Trump The complication I have with Colorado one of the big problems they do mail-in voting They went to all mail-in voting so they have automatically crooked elections and we can t have that AL Then he declared that the U S shot down a boat allegedly carrying drugs in the Caribbean acknowledging the administration s efforts to deploy the U S military in its fight against narco-traffickers DT We just over the last limited minutes literally shot out a boat a drug-carrying boat A lot of drugs on that boat AL And then he threatened to deploy military troops to not just Washington D C but Chicago and Baltimore DT If the governor of Illinois would call up call me up I would love to do it Now we re going to do it anyway We have the right to do it because I have an obligation to protect this country and that includes Baltimore AL The mask is no longer slipping it s off The threats aren t threats They re policies And my question is does anyone really have the power to stop it As Congress returns to session they re faced with avoiding fiscal free fall preparing for fights on Trump s nominees and a congressional stock trading ban There s also been talk of a looming crime bill with limited details Meanwhile despite House Majority Leader Mike Johnson s best efforts to avoid in-fighting among Republican congressional members over releasing Department of Justice sex trafficking review files on Jeffrey Epstein a bipartisan effort to force a vote is gaining steam Ro Khanna Less than percent of these files have been issued Thomas Massie If you ve looked at the pages they ve issued so far they re heavily redacted Chosen pages are entirely redacted and percent of this is already in the population domain RK We are demanding in the current era on the discharge petition that all of the files be issued AL So at present we re going to break it all down with my colleagues Intercept politics reporters Jessica Washington and Matt Sledge Welcome back to The Intercept Briefing Jessie and Matt Matt Sledge Thanks so much for having me Jessica Washington Thank you for having us AL As invariably this is a fast-moving news atmosphere So just a note we re speaking on Wednesday September Congress is back from their August recess and we re coming off of a weekend of conspiracy theories that Trump died and jumping right back into the crime emergency a showdown at the CDC and another looming regime shutdown On top of that it feels like we re hearing about a new congressional retirement every other day There have been more retirements informed at this point in than at the same point in any year since Matt let s start with you What is the mood in D C Related Price Tag for Trump s D C Military Surge At Least Million a Day MS Well I think you have the D C where ordinary people live and they re coming off of several weeks of facing off against National Guard officers and FBI agents just on ordinary residential streets And then you have the mood on Capitol Hill where lawmakers are coming back after this long August recess and looking at what is going to be just a frenetic period of legislative activity I think the biggest thing hanging over everybody is this looming shutdown this intra-party debate among Democrats over what to do and this pressure from the White House that seems aimed almost at forcing a shutdown And then there are a million other things happening on Capitol Hill There s a big defense bill working its way through the House and Senate And then there s this whole Epstein situation happening as well which threatens to derail everything else Akela Lacy On the Epstein files let s just jump into this This might be the number one topic the Trump administration wishes would go away but has yet to releasing DOJ scrutiny files on Jeffrey Epstein who committed suicide in his cell in while under analysis for sex exploitation and trafficking underage girls On Tuesday the House Oversight Committee circulated more than pages the Justice Department had turned over in August but it was only a portion of the analysis file Much of it was already residents And then on Wednesday morning Reps Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna held a press conference with Epstein s casualties Anouska De Georgiou If Ghislaine Maxwell were pardoned it would undermine all the sacrifices I made to testify and make mockery of mine and all survivors suffering Marina Lacerda My name is Marina Lacerda I was Minor-Victim in federal indictment of Jeffrey Epstein in New York in I was one of dozens of girls that I personally know who were forced into Jeffrey s mansion on East st Street in New York City when we were just kids Anouska De Georgiou That is why the Epstein Files Transparency Act is so essential AL They reported a bill to force a vote to release the full assessment Jessica can you bring us up to speed What are Massie and Khanna proposing exactly and do they have the votes JW As you ve already explained Republican Rep Thomas Massie of Kentucky and Democratic Rep Ro Khanna of California are teaming up to force essentially a full release of the Epstein files which is essentially just the research from the DOJ into Jeffrey Epstein who I think as majority of people know is a convicted sex offender who committed suicide in prison in So they need signatures at least to force a vote This is what s known as a discharge petition So Khanna described NBC News that he was certain that the entire Democratic Caucus which just for its math is members would vote yes He also believes that he has six Republican votes meaning in theory they do have the votes to force the vote which is kind of a funny way of saying it The White House has been fighting this discharge petition saying that anyone who supports it it would be considered a hostile act if anyone supports it So it s a little less clear when they veritably would get to a vote to pass the discharge position to the actual vote And that would not be likely for another two weeks at least It s a little less clear whether or not they d definitely have the votes to release the files but it does seem that they have the votes to at least get this discharge petition through AL So if there s only really like a certain pathway for success on the discharge petition what is the end championship here Is it authentically to get these distributed Is it to make a report to Trump I mean the press conferences you have Khanna praising Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert and talking about how strongly they feel that this is not a partisan issue I mean in the backdrop Democrats are internally fighting over whether or not to cooperate with Republicans over this executive shutdown I mean what is the play there JW Yeah I mean I think it s twofold I mean you could argue that there the Democrats are saying well this is something we should do regardless I think it is very clearly also a political issue in the sense that Trump has a real weakness with his base which is that a decent amount of his base is deeply committed to conspiracy theories and a great number of of these theories center around Jeffrey Epstein and child exploitation more broadly So that s really at the center of a lot of his supporters worldview and Democrats perhaps were slow to understand how much of a political liability this was for Trump But they re waking up and this does very clearly seem to be an issue that is if not partisan obviously we re seeing Republicans join in as well is deeply political in nature AL Why do you think it s causing a split with specific Republicans I mean particularly with like you know people these are what is considered the fringe members of the Republican Party whereas more traditional conservative Republicans are not being visible on this issue Is that because they re afraid of Trump or is it something else JW Yeah I think fear of Trump is definitely a motivator for the Republicans who are trying to avoid I mean obviously we saw House Speaker Mike Johnson send Congress home early just to avoid even having to take a vote on this So we know this is a messy messy issue for the GOP I think on the one hand you definitely have Republicans who are afraid of Trump but then you also have Republicans who are afraid of their own base who recognize how deeply unpopular it is to try and prevent these files from being circulated They ve been selling their supporters for a very long time you know We re going to release the Epstein files And so they re really at a tricky area where they can either patronage Trump and not vote to release the files But then that brings them into a very messy fight with their own base So it s a real complicated issue for Republicans AL Matt the most of looming issue for this congressional session is negotiating a budget extension before a feasible October shutdown What can you tell us about this Matt Sledge Well I think it s really hard to encounter out what s going to happen now What is clear is that Republicans are going to need particular kind of Democratic endorsement to get a budget extension passed and that is going to be hugely dependent on these intra-party discussions among Democrats As we all remember Chuck Schumer got pilloried for providing aid for the last one of these extensions I think he s going to be very reluctant to make a similar decision now There are a lot of Democrats not just progressives who are really angry about the idea of giving Republicans patronage right now And you know Trump has made things even harder for Democrats I m sure this is intentionally by pursuing rescissions and preponderance lately the so-called pocket rescission where he is essentially saying OK Congress you passed this bill telling me to spend this much money I m just going to ignore you And so it means that any kind of deal that Republicans make with Democrats is that much harder because Democrats know that they have a man in the White House who doesn t honor deals that Congress makes on Capitol Hill AL Yeah we remember Democrats were hammered after they didn t hold the line against Trump in March It sounds like that is changing a little bit but what is the strategy from Sen Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries right now MS That is a great question and I m not sure that they have tipped their hands Perhaps it s strategic silence But as far as I know I haven t heard them lay out their strategy going into this fight That doesn t mean they haven t cooked one up behind the scenes but I think the constituents at large is in the dark about what they want to pursue I think tonally and posture-wise they re both trying to telegraph that they re going to take a tough posture against the Trump administration and Republicans But whether they authentically follow through on that is an open question AL I know there was a Dear Colleague letter where they stated that they re unified they re describing Republicans approach as a go it alone approach that is heading the country towards a shutdown prioritiz ing chaos over governing partisanship over partnership and Trump over Americans That is definitely a different tone than what we heard in March but there s also talk that Democrats and strategists want them to make any sort of shutdown an issue about strength care and try to put that on Trump s back If robustness care is the number one issue that s resonating with voters is it too little too late I mean is that the right play MS It s hard to say And I think this is what critics of a maximalist strategy would say is that the party that forces the shutdown usually loses in the court of residents opinion Does putting a fitness care spin on it help that much I m not sure that s the grand winning strategy here but it could help put the focus on all the things that the Big Beautiful Bill did in terms of cutting people s wellness care So it could echo their messaging around that bill which is going to be a huge issue heading into the midterms next year Break AL The backdrop of all of this is Trump has flooded Washington D C with National Guard troops and threatened to send more to cities including Chicago and Baltimore We know at the end of the day this is between Trump and local mayors but where are Democrats in Congress on this issue right now And is this something Democrats are considering when they re debating whether to cooperate with Republicans right now JW It s been relatively quiet from Democrats in Congress I mean you would imagine that D C being taken over by a Republican presidential administration would be a slightly bigger deal to them But we haven t really heard too much I mean certainly there has been certain action Congresswoman Delia Ramirez D-IL held a press conference on Wednesday morning along with Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton D-D C Judy Chu D-Calif Congressman Glenn Ivey D-Md and Congresswoman Nydia Vel zquez D-N Y So there has been specific action from congressional Democrats particularly on the more progressive end and obviously Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton represents D C although she doesn t have a vote in Congress But we ve also seen capitulation from local Democrats as well The D C mayor has very much been rhetorically capitulating to Trump saying oh well maybe this ll help or maybe that ll help kind of agreeing that particular of this was necessary So obviously that historically has not been a winning strategy with Donald Trump Capitulation does not seem to appease him in any real way But we have really seen congressional Democrats be very very quiet on this issue when you would imagine with all of the talk of authoritarianism and fascism that you would see a little more action when we authentically have troops occupying the nation s capital AL Right I was reading a newsletter the other day and it was like you know Democrats hands are kind of tied because crime is down since they sent the National Guard in It s like yeah if there are military people patrolling the streets people are not going to be I just the logic is kind of mind-numbing JW No the logic is quite mind-numbing to me I mean especially because we have local examples of how to authentically fight crime I mean if you think about Baltimore for example they heavily invested in the sorts of things that we know genuinely prevents crime afterschool programs having people in the neighborhood really step in and do violence intervention And so to say OK well crime is down because D C is at present being occupied by a military force is a little silly when we have these examples AL I want to also flag this crime bill Jessie what can you tell us about Trump s latest proposal JW Yeah so as of Wednesday September while we re recording we don t in fact know what is in this bill only that Trump and the GOP were working on it over recess Trump in relation to his what I m calling the takeover of D C has suggested a crime bill essentially to force a lot of these tough on crime policies into not just D C but other cities across the country I think what we should expect to see is an attempt to really roll back the clock on even minor criminal justice reforms that occurred under the Biden administration and even in several cases under the Trump administration under the first Trump administration to be clear So I think what we re likely to see is really when I say tough on crime what I really mean is policies that are incredibly punitive So I think we should expect to see really punitive policies I think in line with what we ve seen from Trump kind of across the board in this administration is really any kind of success you might say of the Biden administration when it comes to issues like criminal justice issues like housing anything like that really a rolling back of the clock on those things So that s what I am expecting when this bill in fact comes out AL I mean do you have any sense of like why now My sense of reading at least particular of the coverage of this is like yes obviously Trump has been threatening all sorts of things on return to law and order et cetera et cetera but it seems like it sort of caught people by surprise JW Yeah I think twofold I mean one I think it s very connected to the takeover we re seeing in D C This is not peculiar Republican administrations have historically used D C as kind of a weapon talking about crime in D C in a very racialized way And then using that as a backdrop to push really punitive criminal justice measures So I think that s part of it seems to be a distraction from the Jeffrey Epstein files This has politically been a massive loser for Donald Trump And I think we re seeing him really throw different political red meat so to speak to his base at this moment to distract AL Trump also in the last few days just signed an executive order to end cashless bail What is the significance of that move and how does it fit into the scene he s painting of America as this lawless land that necessities his protection JW Yeah so Trump signed an executive order that I mean to be clear it penalizes cities and states that have limited or abolished cash bail So he can t unilaterally get rid of those policies but he can punish cities and states that have enacted it Effectively what this means is whether or not you end up in jail or you get to go home has to do with the amount of money in your wallet Donald Trump is very clearly painting a scary picture of this country that doesn t definitely fit into reality I mean what the evidence shows is that no-show rates are essentially the same in jurisdictions that require cash bail and those who don t So this idea that ending cash bail is what s led to a huge crime surge which also isn t happening by the way is just entirely ludicrous And like I was saying before Donald Trump is trying to throw this scary picture out about crime because he s losing on this other issue which is really related to these conspiracy theories around child exploitation But he still requirements to use fear as a weapon and a cudgel So we re seeing that with what he s doing in D C with the pushing of this crime bill and also with this executive order to try and eliminate places that have limited or abolished cash bail AL So what I m hearing is that if it wasn t already clear to people it s becoming more apparent each day that Trump is deadset on militarizing law enforcement and solidifying this police state But where does that leave us and what are the long-term effects of that project MS I think it s still really an open question just because you look at these latest court rulings just in the last scant days about the Posse Comitatus Act and about the deployment of troops to Los Angeles and there s certainly a few pushback from the courts And then with this executive order as with all of Trump s executive orders it s perpetually this is what Trump is purporting to do And it s very unclear that he has the actual power to do what he s saying So I think we are at another one of these junctures where it s hard to tell how this is all going to shake out AL There s talk of a Republican forcing a vote on banning congressional stock trading How far is that likely to go and could that catch Democrats on their heels Matt Sledge Yeah so I mean there s a member from Florida who is threatening to force a vote on this At the same time she is giving House leaders a little bit of leeway to try and pursue their own stock bargain ban I don t think Mike Johnson is very enthused about this but this is an issue that has polled very well among ordinary people of both parties I think everybody sees the promising for corruption here At the same time is an alternative bipartisan proposal for a stock trading ban from other members of Congress I m not sure how far either of these is going to get in the face of skepticism from Mike Johnson He has proven himself to be pretty good at maneuvering around these discharge petitions And I think without the fire under the feet of the base the MAGA base on an issue such as Epstein that s become such a rallying cry I think it s so much harder to get a bill over that hurdle of Mike Johnson s opposition This is an issue that people care about but I don t think it s as quite the rallying cry that the Epstein files have become AL Another area where Democrats have had a complex time avoiding the appearance of hypocrisy in criticizing Trump is the embrace of crypto Matt do you see this tying their hands at all when it comes to drawing lines in the sand with the GOP MS I think for several members you know they have really opened themselves up to charges of hypocrisy by supporting plenty of of the crypto industry s priorities The line those kind of pro-crypto Democrats are trying to draw is we that want good clear regulations for everybody but we oppose Donald Trump s self-dealing and corruption I think the larger critique of that though oftentimes from progressive Dems is this entire industry is rife with self-dealing and corruption and you can t really draw a few distinction between bad crypto i e Trump and good crypto meaning other actors So yeah certain people have definitely opened themselves up to charges of hypocrisy But there s also the caveat there and you hear this from a lot of people who care passionately about this issue is that it still has not broken through to the general population of voters as a major issue And I think unfortunately it may not break through as a major issue until we see a big financial sector crash tied to cryptocurrency AL Dark ML Yeah AL Jessie progressives have been pushing a bill to block bombs to Israel What s the story there and is that having any effect JW Yeah so this has been an ongoing legislative effort led by progressive Democrats to block the sale of specific U S made weapons to Israel So this wouldn t include everything As our colleague Jonah Valdez released what s vital now is that even AIPAC-funded Democrats have started to sign onto this act Israel s actions have been really increasingly unpopular We re seeing movement even among Democrats who we really thought would hold the line on Israel would continue kind of in perpetuity to send weapons that are being used now in Gaza And so we are really seeing a bit of a sea change now does that mean that we should be expecting imminent ordinance to pass on this and that the U S will instantly stop selling arms to Israel anytime soon I wouldn t bet on it especially at this point in the legislative session but certainly we re seeing a lot of momentum And I think that s what people are watching Democrats who really seemed like they were going to hold the line on this issue forever definitely taking into account not only their constituents concerns but also really start to it seems potentially absorb particular of the really horrific news out of Gaza conclusively AL As the death toll climbs I ll also just mention I know that shortly after Zohran Mamdani s win in the New York City mayoral primary in June in which he outperformed several members of the New York congressional delegation in their own district selected of whom were pro-Israel and had endorsed his opponent the Institute for Middle East Understanding Protocol Project started running ads in districts of several of these members and then in other states And I think two or three of them have since signed on to this bill after having those ads run in their districts So I just craved to mention that There s been a lot of news about concerns over redistricting in several states Matt what are your thoughts on this MS Yeah I think one of the the bulk gripping overlooked issues here is the intraparty fights that this is going to set off We ve already seen this in Texas when Greg Casar and Lloyd Doggett were maneuvering behind the scenes to claim one of these Democrat friendly districts in Texas And then in California if the new maps pass there through the referendum process it s going to shake up even several of these safe Democratic districts They re going to have different maps and it s potentially going to open the door for primary challengers a little bit So you know Akela you were already talking about these retirements that we re seeing in record numbers There s already been this surge in primary challengers months and months before anybody s going to definitely go into the ballot box And I think in California where you have just so a multitude of blue districts that s potentially going to make things even more fascinating to see the lines reshaped there AL Now I ll just open it up a little bit for both of you What are you watching closely for the remainder of this session I ll start with you Matt MS Sure Yeah We talked a little bit about crypto and the industry is really hoping to get another piece of law passed before the year comes to an end A so-called framework ordinance that would lay out the ground rules for all of cryptocurrency and in the industry s eyes hopefully put majority of the regulatory powers under the CFTC which they view as friendlier to the industry than the SEC There are a lot of moving parts to this You ve got multiple committees with jurisdiction in both the House and the Senate Big personalities and they re trying to do it all before the end of the year because traditionally in an voting year almost nothing happens So this is a huge push from the industry They already had a big win with the so-called stablecoin bill earlier in the year And they want to notch another one before Congress goes dormant ahead of the elections It s hard to say whether they will get what they want but they re pushing hard and I think they know that this may be their best chance for years AL Jessie what about you What are you watching JW Yeah so I m definitely watching what s going to happen with the Epstein files I think that is engaging from a political sense in particular This is a story that really does seem to potentially be unraveling the GOP and unraveling Trump I think it s worth watching But for me you know and not just my own little special interest but watching what s happening with D C I m really curious to see if congressional Democrats do step up and in fact start to really make this an issue make the occupation of the nation s Capitol a political issue on the hill And also if we see chosen real pushback to the crime bill that Trump is proposing and these other actions that he s taking to really roll back the clock on these really hard one criminal justice reforms that first of all never went far enough And in the end we started to see selected bipartisan help for reforms particularly when you looked into the price of incarcerating people in the United States There was certain bipartisan assistance for reducing sentencing And I have deep concerns about where we re going to be going and whether or not that happens in this session I m not sure but it is definitely something that I m paying close attention to AL It sounds unsurprisingly like the next scarce months will be wild For all of our listeners to keep tabs on what s next follow our reporting at theintercept com And we will leave it there Thank you both Matt and Jessie for joining me on the Intercept Briefing JW Thanks so much for having me MS Thanks for having me AL That does it for this episode of The Intercept Briefing We want to hear from you Share your story with us at -POD-CAST That s - - You can also email us at podcasts at the intercept dot com This episode was produced by Laura Flynn Sumi Aggarwal is our executive producer Ben Muessig is our editor-in-chief Chelsey B Coombs is our social and video producer Fei Liu is our product and design manager Nara Shin is our copy editor Will Stanton mixed our show Legal review by Shawn Musgrave And transcript by Anya Mehta Slip Stream provided our theme music You 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